At this point I just wanted to get the car back together and running. So it was a quick clean of the brake calipers and back on. I will probably get these refurbished next winter.
Mount made for my Talon switch panel. Total newb at fabrication if you can call it that but good fun anyway.
400bhp NX Express wet kit just in case
Car loaded up and on the way to the dyno
Car made 555bhp on wastegate springs which is enough to run it in and zero modifications to the standard DRP gearbox.
My Dad loves the wood but I think it has to go
After lots of thought SQS or DonOctane decided to go for something purpose made and best of all UK made.
Time to come apart again
Lots and lots of Fing and blinding late the gearbox was out with the engine and transfer box still in position. Entirely possible but definitely yanking the engine next time.
New guest has settled in nicely
Turbo to charge cooler pipe powder coated after a few little tweaks
Had a few issues on the dyno with pipes blowing off and overheating due to air locks so re-introduced an expansion bottle back in the system.
Found a local guy to paint the car so decided on House of Kolor ‘Jet set back’ and lots of clear and colour sanding. Seen it on the tv a bunch so fancy myself a nice paint job. On area I’ve never paid a lot of attention to.
That last comment makes me laugh, engine rebuild was quick and not as painful as I originally thought, but that turbo build is still not finished lol. Altho I may hear it run for the first time since I pulled the engine out all those years ago tomorrow last piece of the puzzle is my new fuel pump which arrived today... Lets hope she doesn't smoke like she did 3 years ago!
After a break of more years than I can remember. I took the plunge and bought an r32. Driving it home all I could think was. Hmmmmm I've missed this shit. !!!!
Don't skimp on the wastegate, the cheap ones can have problems easily and are often set for high boost, don't get cheap knock off Bosch replica injectors either, same with the recirc valve - if you skimp on the air/fuel parts you're asking for trouble!
Also don't bother with RS4 maf unless the tuner says so, there are different ways depending on what they do, so speak to your tuner before you do any air/fuel metering changes to see what parts they use otherwise you'll just be wasting money there as they'll either tell you to change to what they used for their tunes or further work in mapping and it sounds like you're on a budget.
Have dealt with many ebay turbo users on the 4 cylinder cars and they tend to hold up well at lower boost (year/6000+ miles), I wouldn't put too much stress on cheap metal though, one bit of impeller going through the engine could destroy everything, so I wouldn't spend too much if doing anything ebay special kind of way but your air and fuel is everything in running!
PART 2:
So, once we have an understanding that there is a lot of marketing spiel, a lot of material and QC variances that you should look into to get the best, let's be more specific to VRT tuning!
Common destruction of engines;
I would say, in my experience, that there are two major factors in destroying engines and no matter how many times I tell people, this can also supersede any of the upgraded material specification aspects mentioned previously, it is what ultimately destroys engines the most in my opinion - age!
Engines are set up for certain tolerances, certain specifications like measurements, that can obviously change with time due to general wear and tear from the forces placed upon them! I did this little mod on a the wiki VR6 drawing but it simply shows how pressure is placed angularly on certain reciprocal parts...
But with other factors to consider!
G = Gravity, naturally pushing down on the offset angles of the reihenmotor - our baby's!
– in short, you've over 14lbs per square inch pressing down on you at any time, ambient pressure, you times this by the parts moving x amount of times over the course of an engines life, in this case angles against forces and so on..... you get wear and tear that changes the engine from how it was designed to be! Imagine gripping a tennis racket handle for example and someone twists it, you naturally loosen your grip, if you left is as is, the friction would burn you and eventually wear your hand down, same principles apply, often why you hear about lubrication of oil for example on rods, but even then this action over time leads to wear and tear! This is what destroys engines really, forces and use!
Therefore, simple rule is – if you're looking to ensure longevity of your engine, do not think it is necessarily good “as is” just because it runs right! I have dealt with many that think that only to find their engine pop when the boost is turned up, usually due to all sorts from blocked oil pick ups to plugs not even being in properly! I will always maintain that the simple refreshing of an engine by an experience builder, will ensure far greater longevity than leaving it as it is and even some "forged engine builds"! If you can't fork out for forged parts, just refresh it all to oem should really help with longevity.
Reason for that again comes down not to the material in this respect on a used engine - as such material can often receive some form of heat treatment in it's usage over it's lifetime, but the tolerance aspects and additional strains it places upon your components if it is not running right and the sheer depth of pressures/shearing forces depending on something like a small measurement difference and angular sheer stress!
Which moves us onto the tune.....
I assume most of you know that “a controlled burn” is what you always aim to achieve in terms of ecu tuning, the burning of fuel – as is required for correct operation. Detonation is an explosion rather than a controlled burn and this explosion, to cut a long story short, means a hell of a lot more stresses!
So the tune is a very, very, important part, personally I have seen many pro tunes with little component protection/knock control but they still work based on what work has actually been done in testing, plus tunes like ASR (anti-slip/traction-control) dumbed down instead of tuned for example, meaning something works but not necessarily as best it should. Point being - most of you don't know what's in a tune, enquire!
So this explosion/knock, can destroy engines no matter how much you upgrade material spec to be honest, but the pressures alone could shear most materials, even hum dinger forged parts with better properties - you're simply protecting as best possible given resources!
So be aware that tunes.... pretty much anything air/fuel/burn related, is no.1 on the list!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration
EDIT - I put this up on the vid section, good example based on fuel v spark/timing/burn etc;
So we understand the basics on building if looking at upgrading and/or rebuilding with stock so let's focus on building an engine for FI and saving money!
In short, the more you do for an engine builder, the more you will save yourself at the end of the day!
Taking it out of the car, stripping it down and bagging up/tagging parts is a good start, it'll save you a lot so I would do that first of all to save you some pennies. There's plenty of info on the forum for that.
So you save some money by stripping a lot yourself, and you're now aware that you need to specify that the engine builder needs to look into checking oem angles/tolerances etc and will need new oem parts at least for basics like gaskets, rings, bearings etc. This is when you budget for your forged upgrades or you aim your budget at further oem refreshing!
First port of call is the compression ratio then, with stock 6 pots running 10-11.5:1 ratio's as standard depending again on age, skimmed etc, then it would take a lot of tuning to get it right with various sensors missing and ability in the ecu, so generally, for safety's sake and on a road car at least - compression ratio is lowered to help protect from detonation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio
What ratio you use can vary, personally, I have dealt with many big turbo/big name owners that run very low compression ratio's (sorting out their big name tunes) and they seem happy, up to dealing with a 2.8 24v owner who ran 9:1 at nigh on 700hp on pump fuel! I would therefore recommend keeping that ratio at 9:1 at most but this can come down to the tune as well, as mentioned, detonation and tune can make a difference so factor that in to what you are doing as those stresses count for a lot, you get different quality of injectors, fuel pumps etc. Get info on the tuners builds if you can (i.e. compression ratio, parts used, boost levels etc) - or simply research lot's of parts details and get an understanding of what they can do.
There are three main options nowadays to lower compression; spacer plate, pistons and rods;
Spacer plates can vary in thickness which brings about various compression ratios, adding a gap between the head and block, options being - roughly 7-10:1 compression I think on the market nowadays. Main thing as boost rises using plates would be squish, which is why head and block studs would be a good upgrade, although you're talking nigh on forged piston money now but deal with the basics first!
Forged pistons we've mentioned above, 4032 will expand less than 2618 which what they all seem to be, various options on skirt mods to negate this, various compression ratio's etc
Another option fairly new to the market is low compression rods, I've dealt with some big name tuners testing these out in Europe and they seem to be happy, it negates the need for a spacer plate and add's strength in design and material, as they are a few mm shorter as you can see, still fairly new at this time though;
Low compression rods have the benefit of adding material strength in these areas as well as lowering compression for detonation purposes, negating the need for pistons and/or a spacer plate!
Ebay rods v Big name
There was an interesting thread on another forum about Chinese rods and I think they came to the conclusion that the rod bolts were the weak point. I put a thread up ages ago to see if I could drum up numbers for some custom x beams (not enough interest though) and in dealing with the manufacturers and suppliers I saw test data of 210,000+psi on the bolts if I remember right, surprised to read that then on that forum thread! Again, this can come down to the manufacturers used and variances in that respect - so I am skeptical about their statements somewhat being a reference to any "Chinese rods" if you will. Of course the big names all put up some data and talk about the development in-house and we all know they tend to hold up - as mentioned in the thread though, there are many factors to consider.
When I was dealing with manufacturers I think it came to in-between a 3rd and half the cost of a part manufactured in the UK (buying/filing patent, moulds and initial product) to outsource it abroad unfortunately, which is why many big name companies have done similar with parts, but the quality specified was still top notch (International QC standards/material spec etc) and the part would have been just as good if I had got the numbers. So, cheaper doesn't necessarily mean any less of a product and the blasé statements about such parts or locations should really be looked into more in depth!
So you have a few options, generally;
Rod bolts (stressed area/tolerances v usage) - Low compression plate (various ratio's, needn't go crazy but match to tuners requests) is a good base to start with,
Possibly head studs/main studs/bolts - squish and alignments etc plus strength/clamping forces added here
Low compression pistons - as above really
Rod's - low comp or stock, various material/costs, again as above info
But....... give it a good refresh first, budget that then changes mentioned above as a base to help longevity and that's why some relatively stock engines can reach big power without forged parts. Well.....
The head can set you back a lot.... a hell of a lot really! Not always necessary as some show;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL6Aq0WwZ3I
But it is the crux of power and is still subject to stresses and strains!
The head can take a lot of money to upgrade but, aside from checking oem tolerances and refreshing as mentioned for the bottom end, you could keep this fairly simple if in good shape.
Valve guides are often the bane of VAG vehicles with high mileage, just general parts refreshing things, I can't really emphasise that enough as I have seen people try and take short cuts time and time again and it always ends up costing them more!
Valve float can be a problem on older engines, especially if you are upping rpm limit's like many tunes do, so heavy duty valve springs is a good idea to stop this, again check guides though. Think about the basics logically, you know usage can knacker the springs, we all jumped up and down on the beds as kids and know what happens to springs in the long run, so how harsh a life has your engine led, how much are 2nd hand ones etc, what rpm you gonna run... should all be considered!
Whilst you are stripping your engine for the engine builder or your own DIY you can do some little things yourself, it's what I did years ago, just bought some simple dremel tools, files etc and had a go! You can do things like gasket match your manifold gaskets to your ports, you can chamfer oil and water passages, even have a go at porting and polishing. This work can end up costing lot's of money, you are better with things like flow benches obviously, but you can do some clean up and lot's of measurements and if you're going to have a go at DIY building then why not, just do your homework and be uniform in that if you can!
Cams can help get a lot more power/torque when going NA to FI as many will know, again this should come down to the tune and changes in your set up/your goals as they are generally set up for emissions/daily driving - all of this head work should really be specified to your ecu tune/cams/revs/turbo/boost and it can take up huge amounts of budget - usually pro engine builders will have their own parts they use and a lot of this is worked out with them - in terms of DIY - well, World's your oyster if you educate yourself enough!
So, just a brief overview, I wanted to mention the manufacturing and material side and some basics outside of the usual "forged is better" kind of thing.
So it has come to this. After 7 long years, slowly collecting parts and prepping the poor girl any spare minute I could, on my pitiful salary Unfortunately circumstances dictate that I must let go and let someone make use of the parts where I could not. I am genuinely sorry I didn't spend more time on her, and I will sorely miss her. But life moves on, the world keeps spinning and change is inevitable. So it is with great hesitation I am putting everything up for sale. I will start with the exciting performance parts first, and will update my sale thread as I work through the pile. If there is anything people need urgently then drop me a line and I will dig it out.
I want to thank everyone for their welcome and company, I've met some great chaps from local meets to organised car shows and can only wish luck in their endeavors (and builds!)
Hey fella I really wouldn't worry too much as there's a lot people being way overzealous on this subject...
There's also a whole lot of misinterpreted information on the technicalities of the infamous vr6 timing chains i.e. Stretching! 1st of all chains do not stretch... This is a myth, however they can & do wear out, the way in which a chain wears is in the side to side movement of each link. The parts that tend to wear out in the motor are the guilds & tensioners causing the chains to become slacker which can eventually effect the timing, especially on the 24valvers due to them having VVT (variable valve timing). Worse case scenario of worn guilds tensioners & chains, is that the slackness can eventually cause the chain to jump a tooth or even snap a chain, but this is generally on a badly maintained motor with extremely high milage and is very rare!
The tensioners on the very early 12valver VR6's were made of lesser quality to those of later models & have been know to fall apart on high milage motors with again... Poor service history!
Having said all of this, I did change the timing components on my 4motion 24v only because I had the box off to change the clutch & flywheel, so then I thought fuck it and took the motor out aswel. Anyway once I stripped it all down, there was defiantly some wear on all the timing components but nothing detrimental, bearing in mind it this motor had 157,000miles on her, she'd probably gone on to do another 100,000 easily however, after I rebuilt it all there was a notable increase of performance, nothing massive but definitely better, it just feels tighter & more responsive. The timing checks via vag-com were also improved from -7 & -9 to -1 & -2. Once again though too many guys get scared when this test result shows their timing to be slightly outside of tolerances as were mine! This test/check with VCDS (vag-com) shows a result which translates to a measurement of microns.. Which is minuscule and its this result that can give you an idea of the wear in the guides & tensioners..
Hear are some pics of the timing components I changed on my motor..
So conclusion... If your motor is running sweet with no alarming noises or performance (especially with your milage) I wouldn't worry at all mate. She'll probably go on for another 100k, just keep up good services with quality oils/parts and maybe increase your service intervals.. I do mine every 6mths or 5000miles but that's because I'm a bit anal haha.
Check out my build thread on here. Mine is the 24v engine with a GT3582r .82 and I'm at full boost by 3k rpm and seems to not run out of puff at redline.
This was low'ish boost around 12-13 psi
Thought it was about time that i started my build thread for this as I've had it a while now. This car used to be KEEN VR until it was taken apart and then sold. We won't go into that story anyway
This is what it used to look like
This is the picture i was sent when buying
This is when it arrived
I'm not putting the ones up of how the bay was when i got it as it will make me cry lol But i decided to sell lots of bits off it to regain some money
after i tripped the engine down, cleaned it all up and painted it
Daverse got a reaction from OZZIVR6 in Oil burner
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