RBPE
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Posts posted by RBPE
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On 5/18/2019 at 7:35 AM, Lari Temmes said:
Do you mean these are modifications are that are generally made, or that i would need to do these to make use of ethanol fuel?
Yes, generally made with lots of other mods as well just for normal fuel, na to fi is about the hardest thing you can do on Motronic, either on a flash based tune or the mods needed inc. custom coding and parts. There are a few ways you can go about it, best bet is to learn the basics on the Function Sheets online, things like BGSRM, BGRLP, BGAGR etc which can all have an influence on the relative charge, load, rpm's etc which is what you need to do. I've put up plenty of links to the various aspects but it can get quite complicated and depends on what you can do and how you go about it. I'll try and put up a basic overview to help those going through the 2000 page docs!
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Variable geometry (Schrick) is generally better than fixed as it is designed to operate more efficiently more often (i.e. various rpm's), you just have to think about turbo placement and manifolds where the inlet tract is/the packaging constraints, plus heat soak etc
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On 5/11/2019 at 8:04 AM, Lari Temmes said:
Right, after testing this and that i decided to use both upstream o2 sensors. It's was actually pretty easy to put them onto my chinese exhaust manifold, just like they are on HPA exhaust manifold. That solved my o2 issue and fuel trims seem fine now and i don't get error codes.
It actually runs pretty well with stock ECU. On WOT and >3500 rpm it pushes 0.6bars just fine
Tried with ethanol too (50%-50%) but it was too much for stock ECU.
Making 02 bungs in a cast mani is generally the way many do it, emulates the big name tunes. The two ways are generally like those, manipulating the air modelling whilst taking into account the P/I portions required to a degree (rl/rpm/egt/evap/vvt etc) and forcing open loop, or alternatively running it like oem on closed/open loop and taking into account the PID, adding either simple custom PID routines or more detailed patches and heavily modding the electronics to suit - both quite difficult in their own ways.
The ignition (KFZW) on these isn't too bad at low load/rpm, prob need to bump it up a touch around idle and low rpms (>2k rpm) similar to 2500-3500rpms range but slightly higher values (42-45 at low rpms/load, >50 ish at high rpm/low load), then bump the high load up throughout the rpms and a mix of higher values in the mid range. If you look at the various SU/LEV types of monitoring (ME7/ME9/MED9 for example dep on your car), they'll give you an idea of what areas you need to think about as well as air mass modelling for post ambient on a none map car if you're not hacking the ecu and can bus to bits!
WB02 FTW also so use those gauges to keep an eye on the afr's!
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Without the ecu mod/box they'll be stuck in one position anyway dep on what ecu you're using, so make sure oem ecu mods for it or if going aftermarket, that those ecu's can control it.
Is it a 2 port design, not barrell like the 24v, so one port will speed gas up giving better low flow rate but ultimately becoming a bottle-neck creating turbulence, heating the air up more and losing you power as the air flow increases and the dual ports will lose you this low gas speed in exchange for top end flow and opposites of above. If control is like the 24v's then it'd prob be stuck in power position/dual ports open in default if no ecu control.
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CDLSHV - Codeword diagnosis Lambda probe exchange detection
Cayenne's pretty much identical in this respect from what I remember, 100+ maps/functions for the 02, most testers/diagnostics and some aging/heating and limits etc, it's all Bosch ME. You need a good def file, makes it a lot easier and there are some on the Net for these Porsche's, ecuconnections has some but you'll need to make some posts to see them I think.
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On 4/16/2019 at 3:56 PM, Lari Temmes said:
Thanks. Can't get to that guide, but yes. Dual O2 manifold is option. However, i'm going to try splitted o2 sense signal first. See how that goes.
Not sure why that's playing up? Screenshot it for you anyway;
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I'm not sure, it's probably been nearly ten years since I did anything with an old 12v to be honest and not far off in terms of building a car or engine!
What I can say is that these somewhat simple upgrades in an R32 head seem pretty good for this amount of power and these high revs, so.... I'll let you make your own mind up as to how much modifications you need for high hp!
https://www.turboimpression.de/ueber-den-zulieferer-6?lang=en
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It's contradiciting because it depends really!
Displacement, revs and boost pressure (aka efficiency as desired) - they're the main ingredients for hp, how you go about that usually depends on budget and reason for high goals such as this.
Simply put - you can get this power from a fairly stock engine with a few mods as mentioned in many threads, but generally, the more you do the better.
I usually say for people to do the basics first, which would be refreshing as much as you can afford as the parts of your car have been used and abused over the years to a degree and then uprating the parts put under stresses (i.e. the engine, clutch, gearbox etc) as best as your budget allows. Once you do that then it is on to uprating stuff further which you clearly have done for the botom end with the rods and pistons.
Once that is done then it comes down to two things, the head and the use of the vehicle. The head is the crux of power (or efficiency to be more correct) in such a build and the more flow (hp) you are aiming for, the less restrictions the better. So uprating the head (or even just refreshing parts and uprating some things like harder springs etc) is a good idea if you can afford it. With most of these conversions though they are often road based cars so unlike a drag car "the area under the curve" is an important aspect to note, basically, ensuring good driveability and plenty of low end grunt so you don't have to drive everywhere at 6000+ rpms! Cams would certainly help you in this respect as you are going from an NA set up to FI and there are variances in the lift/aggressiveness etc of such cams, hence why many uprate them, in short, dragging your peak torque down to a more acceptable level for road driving. This also relates to your turbine side of your turbo as well as the tubular manifold mentioned - you also want the exhaust manifold to pulse the air flow out, thus driving the turbine wheel efficiently in the most laminar way possible and you don't want a big turbine ar if it only gives you good flow (hp/torque) at 5000+ rpms on a road car!
So it's basically this - on a road car you need to balance the mass of air flow (which can be increased with big valve heads, big turbo's, free flowing mani's etc) all of which will get you these higher hp numbers you crave, the bragging rights down the pub, but you also want to keep good flow (efficiency) at lower gas speeds so the car remains driveable, on road cars it is this balancing act you are aiming for. If you can afford aftermarket cams, big valve heads etc then yeah, go for it, if not, then a good refresh of the head is a good start, stiffer valve springs are usually a good idea to handle the increases in revs you are likely to want for such power, then cams certainly can help your area under the curve and then onto valves etc after that.
You probably know this if building a big project like that but others might not and it really comes down to efficency where you want it and the balancing act that is aftermarket modifications for a road car!
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Dual 02 mani like HGP/HPA or single 02 conversion.
I had Kompiesto draught me a quick guide for the DIY folks (thanks Marcin), which you can find here;
https://app.box.com/file/302875520967
EDIT - There's a 2-1 and 1-2 split on which bank of cylinders read which on the dual route, best to get that right if you go down that route
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Yeah something like carprog should work, depends on tools/ecu, the need to desolder etc, there should be a few threads about online that tell you, it can really vary between ecu's and flashing tools what data you get or can manipulate on these, as well as which C166 ecu you are using given the variance.
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On 17/03/2019 at 4:22 PM, VR6Treg said:
I get it but not there yet :-)
I was thinking of it like this: ecu is a computer which runs an operating system. When you flash it you're installing the operating system of your choice. I thought the flash/eeprom programming will make the ecu a full clone of the original if the hardware is the same.
The closest I can get is an ecu with the same letters for a 3.2 VR6 Touareg but not the same engine.
I'll start with this one and see how it goes.
This is my first attempt at ecu cloning and this is only a personal project to have a spare ecu so sorry to bother you with basic stuff: What kind of data is there in the comparison pics? I mean is it flash or eeprom or something else?
I can upload an eeprom dump of my ecu if that helps.
What you can do on these or any ecu really, depends on how well, or not, your flashing tool interacts with the ecu plus what you use to read the data with. You can get tools that will not only give you the flash but also the mcu etc as well, even then the data within it could be off depending on what tools you are using to read/reverse it.
Even if you use a normal tool and just get the usual data/eeprom for flashing like on most tools, then even then tools can vary on the data given, a point I was trying to get at in the BDE tuning thread - some tools you'll have rpm data there to change as you wish, some will cover it up so you don't change the rpm's accidentally or they'll shift things around for safety reasons.
So it simply comes down to the tools you're using, their protocols/how they interact with the ecu, not all will just cross over all the data. Not only that but on later ones like ST10 you have immo in the mcu aspects and so on to think about when you flash, THEN it depends on how well your reversing/reading tools are too it seems!
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1 hour ago, VR6Treg said:
Thanks for the info.
I understand that reading flash/eeprom from my 022 906 032 BE and writing it 022 906 032 BT will be hit and miss?
I don't plan to do a plug and play swap. I want to create a clone spare ecu based on the content of my ecu, no tuning.
I know what you are saying but even with the same letters there can be differences, not that they wouldn't cross flash although there can be problems there as mentioned, just that maps alone have differences.
BT is coming up as a Porsche Cayenne ecu with some people touting it as Porsche and Toureg. As an example this is a Cayenne one against and VR6 24V one (032T v's 032BM) - you can see a very similar structure (green) but you can also see differences between maps due to all the reasons mentioned. Like I say, if you don't know how to modify this data it could have problems, best bet is to get as close to your model as possible if not the same one and take it from there!
Best answer I can give you without looking at the ori reads directly and reversing them a bit.
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All ME7.1.1. are 022906032 - the variances between them are; inlet only vvt, full inlet, 2 point exhaust vvt, 02 number variances and limiters and removals market depending, engine and cyl volume variances in the ecu, dsg v manual, hfm maps and the evolution of the c166 which I think has at least 3 variances (early c167, c167 evolution/hybrid and st10) and differences in protocols/immo aspects between c167's and st10's, so certain tools can work on early but not the later st10........ these are just some of the differences off the top of my head between the 022 906 032 only on VW/Audi 2.8's and 3.2's, let alone anything else that may use 022 906 032!
You can have 2 identical letters like the mk5 CD here but they can have differences in them, this is usually market led and some tweaks to maps to suit if I remember right -
Otherwise variances like CD v CE can be the same ecu's for the market but one is auto/dsg and one is manual.
You can modify the data to suit if you know what you are doing like dsg/manual swaps like I showed Hummel below how to start doing it, but if not, I would try and get the exact same one or as close as possible in your market
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=15195.msg120364#msg120364
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On 3/4/2019 at 5:29 PM, Vagnerd said:
Thanks! I'm on NefMoto as well, just not finding too much on the me7.1.1 as you said.
You normally have to piece together these kinds of files using the mk4 R32 full definition files on there, you can do most of it easy enough, the above I only took a few minutes to do as there's no point me doing BDF stuff over here, so look at my posts on Nef and you'll find all you need to put together a full definition file on these....... or at least more than any other place on the net at least!
E.G. I did them quickly just to help this guy, above are just direct links for the files in that post;
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=10385.0
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Overview of your 24v ecu folks, all VR6 24V/R32 are ME7.1.1., called 022906032 (x/xx), apart from mk4 12V US models (M.E.7.1.) - not much info about on me7.1.1. as it's a hybrid evolution of ME7 and MED7/9.... trust me after 10 years but this is the overview from VW....
http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_249.pdf
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I uploaded my Nef stuff to the post above to save time, may as well give it you from source instead of jumpin through hoops and signing up, it should all help I hope, I'll do tons more when I have time!
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On 3/1/2019 at 11:46 AM, Vagnerd said:
Following. Just found this thread, definitely going to read up on it after work. It's been years since I've worked with hex. I have my BDF bin file pulled, anyone know if the BDE xdf work with it?
Nope, well maybe, if you're in the US then you're better signing up on Nefmoto and getting files from this thread and I don't do BDF generally being in the UK, but it's not massively different, just some 02 not being 4wd and speed limiter stuff.
Nef link - http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=10385.msg97338#msg97338
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"I did several runs that day, best one was 302whp and 232wtq, and the worst one was low 280ish whp." is what this guy said;
EDIT - He says 5.5psi of boost on the run which seems low for a stage2?
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There should be plenty of info in terms of parts/hybrid/hardware etc on a quick search, been years since I've done conversions myself, but for example;
Main thing is the sheer differences between the mk3 and 4 set ups in terms of the old Motronic 2/3 v's the ME7.1.1. - quick list off the top of my head; obvious wiring and coding out of bits like airbags, cluster, SAI etc depending on what you use/how you go about it, 02A 5 spped box v's 02M 6 speed, then there's the mk4 being fly-by-wire so you'll need pedal box as you've not got the cable of the mk3 if using the mk4 ecu and obviously need to use the mk4 TB to suit, wb02 and cats etc, depends on how many parts you use and who can do the coding really, quite a few differences in that respect.
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ID's are good injectors, just the times on the 1000's are a fair bit higher, 725's much better. Most just go with Bosch one's, people have had linearisation problems with Siemens
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.... from a fairly stock R32 head with just cams and springs, those crazy German's are creating some beasts!
As he doesn't seem to get many views compared to some on the tube I thought I'd help bump it up, plus you lot like a bit of VR porn!
A couple of oldies but goodies;
I think the chase cars about 400hp!
The website on the car;
https://www.turboimpression.de/ueber-den-zulieferer-6?lang=en
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Some tasteful mods there, I like!
Clutch options would generally be something like a single mass conversion from Sachs or similar from someone like a US company, Clutchmasters etc, generally about a grand or so with more chatter but good pedal feel, you'd be limited to about 450lb/ft of torque with something like that usually though. If not a daily you could prob use a 4/6 paddle grabby one which tend to hold a little over 500lb/ft depending on make, the US companies do some good variations of them. Ultimate high power daily you'd be looking at a high tq multi disc one for a good couple of grand - all depends on your use, budget and what your left leg enjoys!! You could always stick a DSG box on!
In terms of software and the build, on OEM you'll need it code patched to single 02 with that exhaust manifold to stop the trims going out as you'll not be using the two probes like if you had an HPA exhaust manifold or tubular with bosses. On stock ecu you may struggle with 1000cc inectors for dead times but ID are very fast so depends on the times without looking at them, most I've done on oem will use Bosch 550 or 750's and I'll change it to a 4 bar base pressure set up for more headway.
If you go standalone, a lot of the Germans use KMS on theirs for big power and it's not overly expensive in terms of standalone, or your local tuners may use their own standalones and/or simply depends on who you get to tune it. Some well known companies have their own oem ecu set ups and so builds can often centre around the tune and this also dictates your injectors too usually so best to concentrate on that area first I would say.
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300hp is very, very low boost, 10-12psi only would net you in-between 350-400hp depending on efficiency! You could run stock comp for 300hp+ but for longevity's sake try and replace as many nuts/bolts etc as you can if adding a de-comp plate and of course add an intercooler for the charge. Injectors would generally be dictated by what tune you are running, try and stick with Bosch if you can, 550's are popular but again, depends on the tune usually.
As for turbo, a good HX35 with 11-13cm turbine housing would be a good choice or maybe something from one of the JDM type of companies....
eg's;
Don't forget to check fitment for your exhaust manifold, spool on the turbine side AR, budget internal v external wastegate etc if on a budget.
Tried with ethanol too (50%-50%) but it was too much for stock ECU.
Inlet maifold??
in Engine Tuning
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Peak torque is shifted higher up on FI engines plus you have the forcing of air so short runners okay for that, but unless you're going for a very high revving engine (not really the best engine to do that on being undersquare tbh), then you'll be better keeping the stock manifold for more low end torque - depends on your goals though I suppose!