RBPE
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Posts posted by RBPE
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4 hours ago, p0u1 said:
Sorry to dig this from the
Sorry to dig this from the grave had alot pop up in life and had to put the golf at the back of the list, any chance you could let me know more about this?
It's the ecu from a Motronic 3.8 VR6 12V for use in winols (demo) or to make your own tune file xdf in Tunerpro. These files can be found online or in packs you can buy, but I would never trust anything other than making my own. It has LDR (boost control) maps in it so it looks like a turbo file but I have never used it nor looked into the validity of how such data has been added to the binary.
You can make a fairly basic map pack from it to tune your own similar ecu though even if it's naturally aspirated - i.e. looking at the more major ignition/injection maps for example and make an xdf file from the maps data that comes up in winols demo.
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Also interested in 20vt stuff too - pm if req'd.
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Depends what they go for really, quality of welds, wall thickness etc - always interested in options, we have welders but they work in other industries so it can be hard to get them to fab us up something like a mani and sometimes go the usual cast route.
I'm making up some good quality Holset based turbo kits and DIY tunes at the moment (mk4/5 24v really) and was thinking about using the inconel CTS manifold due to wg placement and air filter locations.
A full stainless would obv be a lot but what about something coming off the stock cast manifolds, also dp's with single and dual 02 placements?
i.e.;
What we talking in 304 and 316?
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The usual over and undersquare engine variances really that's all, all these engines are designed as low revving torque monsters like most VAG engines. You can make 600+hp on any of them really, read the description of this for example, not sure of the hp but the times would suggest a fair amount, likely 700+ as stock on a 12v, other engines pretty much similar in terms of durability;
Generally on oem bore/stroke peak hp is around the oem 6800rpm limit, even 1000hp ones with an 8500rpm limit have peak power at 6800rpm due to the fundamental dynamics from what I've seen, so no need for high revs for power, just gears. Bigger ports etc in R32 would ultimately flow more, same with porting/polishing/big valves etc but as said, a lot is in tuning and working out where you want power, even big ports can affect low end for the top... so 600+ is achievable on any, you want more low end, displacement increase, can affect max revs obv given over/undersquare changes, but where's the spool on your turbo, what power band are you happy with and so on? That vid you would think they're not too bothered about low end then for drag so no need to run low end keeping it in high revs and boost, unless he uses it daily in which case turning down the boost would help at the low end and spool......lot's to weigh up!
Best bet would be to look at the logs/dyno plots of any and their respective set ups, plenty about on net and here in places.
Also, if new to VR's, think low revving torque monsters & learn how to change gear faster!
7500rpm/1000hp/stock 02M example;
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On 10/17/2017 at 7:35 PM, Ross newport said:
For 300 miles is that ?
2013 post! He was on about 300lb/ft of torque on the clutch I think, you can do 320-350ish lb/ft on stock generally...for how long though, who knows but general stress points! I'd be interested in seeing how the cast parts like the exh mani on these cheap kits are nowadays.... 4 years since those posts, must have improved surely?
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Have you checked the wiring itself? Any part additions or remap on it?
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Best would be V6 4 Motion as it has everything you need; is cheap, getting a donor under a grand, it has a good ME7 ecu which is easier to tune than the older stuff with chip removals, more info on tuning on the web etc. Lots of welding but I presume you know that!?
Immo off is probably the easiest thing to do with the ecu but it's not too difficult if you know what to do, they are central torque ecu's on V6 (ME7.1.1.) so use the pedal box, use injectors/engine etc - as much of loom as you can, maf - those 3 are the main points you need to run right really, maf/inject/pedal - some wiring/loom changes with such conversions, coding out using those bases is easy compared to piddling about with an old 12v ecu, plus, mk3's are going for decent amounts or are more limited in number!
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Manual to Automatic change?
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Nice little set up someone's done:
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A nice set up for a decent outlay would be;
Holset HX35, usually internal gated on a twin scroll them so many weld it shut and look at a 38 or 44mm external gate like Turbosmart or Tial, or a Garrett GT(X/R) or EFR - this all depends on what you want to spend as a major outlay to the conversion for turbo/wastegate,
Recirc valve - Turbosmart Kompact are good value and you can get them at 32mm or so which is higher flowing than a 25mm 710N or the like, or a 50mm one is usually used for flow,
Exhaust manifold you may have to see on the tune really, can have the 02 bosses welded into the manifold so the tune should follow that, or you can add custom code and a single lambda in the downpipe which will be better for readings - so either cast, full tubular or a tubular off the stock twin exh mani's are your options there, big variance and with your tune;
Downpipe - have someone fab it up or DIY usually best;
FMIC - Better cooling the charge air whilst you fit a kit at the start imo, expensive kits or a bit of hacking with your ebay spesh there;
The stock variable resonance manifold is the best design, but limiting factors are the turbo being added at the exhaust manifold and excess heat at the inlet or just fitment of turbo on the manifold alone with stock inlet mani, plus it is plastic too and can be prone to popping under boost, although some have run them at 20psi with no probs but budget that most likely,
That'll basically get you the turbo set-up done!
Engine - some just stick a spacer on, some then add ARP head studs or rod bolts (or Raceware too are your options for the V/R's), I would always recommend a refresh of engine too, then you can add forged rods, pistons, head work - again depends on budget but a grand plus there!
Clutch will be a limiting factor over 300lb/ft or so (mild boost on these) - and you can add upgraded discs or usually a decent set up preferred would be a Sachs SRE kit with single mass flywheel, some don't like the chatter noise you get when changing from dual to single mass though but it's generally a tougher set up. Budget a little over a grand for that set up but you should be good till 450lb/ft then after that or for absolute best/road manners at high hp, you're looking at a multi-disc set up for a couple of grand or so!
Then it is the tune and fuel, so expect to upgrade the fuel pump (Walbro 255, Bosch 044, DW65V) and then the injectors to suit (Bosch best really, may need some changes to fit) - these could also be dictated by the software.
On oem management there are a few ways to do things, the fuelling is pretty straight forward in that you do it much like any other ME7, you are essentially changing the mass of the droplet of fuel, obv. being larger injectors used as the norm, plus the flight time/constants which can be due to, for example, an inlet manifold change, then you change ignition as obv. NA and FI ignition is different. There's also some massaging of the torque maps being a central torque based ecu, so that things follow certain values past, in that case, load. An NA load would only read to 100 and an FI from 160 on something like a 1.8T 180hp ecu, through to, say, 300 on an RS3. Other pro tuners actually leave these load based maps stock, contrary to many VAG tuners here's belief's, and instead use pedal angle modifications to account for rapid changes in air like adding a turbo, this in turn though leads to numerous changes for things like idle control as you are changing drivers request/pedal interpretations and is also the reason why certain owners who have used pro tuners to try and define/map their dsg are having trouble even finding the maps based on their def files.
Then you can add custom code for basic boost control and other hard coding which usually requires a lot of reverse engineering and essentially a code writer who can write it into the code on it in redundant areas, or by changing the maps/functions of some parts for drivers. Although you can't change/map things as quickly as a standalone, plus whomever writes such a file will usually have IP Rights on it as it is a lot of work meaning that a tuner may not be able to access the data, it does have the benefit of being oem based. Cost for something like that can be around standalone prices mentioned.
These variances will have an effect on what parts are used although like I say, getting the fuelling spot on on these wideband cars is fairly straight forward, it's the changes in air-flow and lack of sensors which can be the bane, such changes like pedal interpretations, are also why some turbo owners may report that their pedal feels a bit numb, it's all related to modelling for the changes.
So, to sum up - you can DIY for £1500, basic intercooled set up, no engine mods, low boost on stock clutch if you can map yourself, then you cater for engine mods and higher boost along side a clutch - £2.5-4k usual cost of a decent 400hp or so set up if you can map yourself, half of which you could spend on the turbo..... then, £10-15k for the absolute top and everything in-between!
People think that there are no options but there are plenty, you just need to pick-n-mix to what you want to achieve and can afford!
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Most turbo re-seller files tuners have access too are for the R32's, you could build a similar one for late BDE/BDF type models or early AUE based ones may need some tweaks due to variances, plus there's a few ways you can map these vehicles - depending on what they can do on that front, that's probably more your limiting factor more than anything in using a pro for a full conversion and will also dictate the fuelling set up you choose plus some of the other parts used on such conversions.
Apart from that it's often easier and cheaper to just source parts yourself - you'll need either a specialist or your local fabricator to make you up a downpipe to your exhaust, everything else is just parts sourcing and fitting.
Engine cost can vary from stock through to spending a fortune, I've mentioned how you can save money and get it refreshed with upgraded parts which you could do with a local engine builder in another thread, saving a few quid, but doing a bit yourself and so on.
Apart from that, you'll often have to speak to VAG pro's themselves to see what they recommend, what they use and all the variances that can go with it as they will have their own little way of doing things.
Technically you could make your own with what's on the net if you look into it - far from easy, but it's possible and the obvious "how much are you willing to spend and how much are you willing to do yourself?" - some of the more "2.8 specific" parts can add up to more than R32, for example this would evidently be a bit more than a 400 euro 2.8/R32 specific ebay inlet manifold you find;
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Overflow is due to expansion, hence why they have overflow/expansion tanks (not sure of your knowledge on such things but seeing as you said HG I may as well lay it out for noobs rather than you as you prob don't need it!) - basically the atoms of certain things reverberating - in this case possibly water (hydrogen/oxygen H2O) molecules which leads to expansion. The cause of this is usually of course heat causing it, too much heat, the bane we don't want and a set temp under conditions which the factory deem safe for normal operation! Not only that but an over abundance of oxygen (adding air - i.e. a split causing the fluid to be replaced with air) can exacerbate the situation!
There obviously can be loss of coolant with a split in a pipe or loose clamp, if you struggle to see it, say checking under the car in the morning, then it's usually either collecting on something like the gearbox or any other housing/part of car, or possibly even just evaporating! So if you are struggling to pinpoint the source - and do take some time to see where it does come out, then this could be a reason!
Once you go through all the hoses and parts that carry the coolant mix about then it's off to the areas where they interact with the engine.
A well known area is, of course, the "crack-pipe" as it's known, quick search link;
Once this is done, or at least checked out, which would sort a lot of those having coolant problems, then addressing the OP directly;
"Yeah, obviously check the seal area's to the engine if you've checked the external coolant carriers mentioned above including radiator of course, rubber seal areas can be prone to splits quite easily where they meet the engine first and foremost, be cheaper and easier checking/replacing easy seals, than cam cover/head off job of course - then yes - on to checking the gasket seals - checking for any bits that have crumbled in terms of passageways or simply a split in the head gasket material causing an incorrect seal... you sound like you know what you are looking for in that respect!" and to any noobs, you need a nice, air-tight seal here as leaks will occur.
Sorry, had 20 mins to kill so thought I'd give an overview for any noobs but if you've checked the obvious and nothing, then yep, onto those gaskets I'm afraid!
P.S. It's also not uncommon to get a leak from the coolant sensor area with a bad fitment, have had my own "this part is correct" but just "quite" didn't fit correctly although it at first looked sealed, plus some who have converted their cars not fitting it correctly by accident/tightness - so another easy check there if need be if you changed any such things - usually carries some fault codes!
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Save a lot of money guessing and read it via VCDS/VAG COM, can then try and pinpoint things better
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Just now, radio_nasty said:
I think I'm going to have to hit the junkyard and find another ECU, maybe swap it back to the original distributor setup... I had no idea about the different injectors for EGR vs non-EGR, maybe that's part of my problem too?!?
I really appreciate you taking the time to provide detailed information, cheers.
No - I'm not saying there ARE any differences between injector flow rates, I'm saying you SHOULD know if there are any differences - it could literally only need an EGR code out to sort - I'm just saying I'm rusty on these older ones and didn't do much with them anyway but all conversions or engine/ecu changes people need to be aware of these things or there could be more that can cause problems in this instance than just the EGR variance - covering all bases!
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Ah, right, got ya!
It's been a while since I've done anything on the older cars or ecu's so you'll have to do the working out and look into the info but in terms of the various engine swaps and ecu tuning I do I tend to take this approach;
Firstly - obviously check things like injector seals, wiring, is the maf in good nick, no tight bends before it causing turbulent flow for readings, fuel pump in good nick, fpr etc - things like that - basically knowing that your air/fuel/sensor parts work fine/the hardware side is all up to scratch - preferably with as much to oem for that ecu that people can afford or you can set up.
Then - is everything else the same between the models/engine's - are the injector flow rates the same, is the fuel pressure the same, do you have vvt variances for example which means the ignition timing maps are a little different to a none vvt one and so on. Main problem is that there were a lot of quick changes in the 90's as legislations came in for emissions, you can get things like EGR and non EGR in the same year like you said - so next bit is checking that the parts did not vary too much, if the ecu is set up for an EGR 200cc injector and a non EGR one was 185cc's for example, then that can cause problems as well as, in this case, not having certain things for the maps like EGR.... all add's up.
If that's all sorted then yes, it is likely to be the EGR variances as you can see in the screenshot above they are a part of ignition.
Most people should probably do that if they use a certain mapper, like a local one you always use or one's who do lot's of cars or aren't particularly knowledgeable on model variances, you can help save them time pinpointing things that are different and need looking into in that respect.
Hope that helps
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What?.....
"I recently swapped an OBDI 12V VR6 into my 1999 Mk3 Jetta (OBDII, obviously), but I'm keeping the engine OBDI.
I do still have everything for the dizzy, except the ECU.So thats part of the problem, I would need another ECU (I think)This engine has the block and head from a late '95 VR6 with the dizzy and no EGR, and the ECU and wiring harness from an early '95 VR6 with a coilpack and EGR, hence the dizzy to coilpack convesion"
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P.S. AGR is EGR above so there can be further changes needed for EGR delete for example on the same ecu, it has been some years since I played with the older Motronic, but above is very much likely the answer without being able to put the 2 variant ecu's together! Time's are ms which is very finite so getting that spot on is essential and the maps shown above don't even show the after-start and warm-up changes, so lot's are dependent on the ignition maps being right. You can see on the vid that when they aren't the fuel can do all sorts and wash out the port without any ignition if too far off.
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Speaking on later ME7 stuff, there are times calculated to charge the coil and release the spark ensuring a proper burn, sometimes people get lucky in that they'll get deflagration over detonation as the times are similar, upgraded coils have a better energy/enough for proper burn based on the oem map times etc, but you always want to be running the set times for said coils - so use the ecu that uses those coils or the maps at least!
If you're changing these then 1st port of call is always to sort the map out first or you're risking trouble - so if you're not sparking the mixture properly in time, like this vid, then I wouldn't risk running it until sorted!
You can see the way the mixtures are igniting or not or fuel just getting washed out with no combustion etc here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration_to_detonation_transition
I haven't got access to my 12v files at the moment due to hard drive problems, but I'll see if I can dig out the differences if I have time, you can see how many ignition maps there are in this VR6 12V and why the timing is very important;
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Some links;
You can use files from here to build your own definition file if you haven't got flashing tools yet; I'll probably use them for demonstration purposes.
http://www.chip-tuner.hu/original_ecu_files/files/VW/
I don't use it myself commercially, but the winols demo is good to learn on here;
https://www.evc.de/en/download/down_winols.asp
Free hex editor here;
Most make xdf files to use Tunerpro for tuning, which can be found here;
Cheapest standalone checksum checker;
However, checksums can be sorted out in some of the newer ebay based flash tools like MPPS v18 onwards, which means you can now essentially tune your car for less than £100 all in.
These can also be used on DSG;
http://www.obdexpress.co.uk/wholesale/2014-mini-dsg-reader-dq200-dq250-vw-audi.html
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Will edit soon, new layout;
Main torque maps in the ecu's, KF (kenfelder - map, M - moment/torque) - are KFMIOP and KFMIRL - essentially the main torque maps for the central torque monitoring ecu's - some locations and info (to be edited);
Note - 022906032 is the usual ecu number for ME7.1.1. - BG is the commonly used BDE code between tuners, 032E is the one often used for AUE none twin vvt ecu's, will update with more info when needed;
BDE v's a tuned HX35 turbo AUE;
Notice how the AUE turbo has IOP modified to be maxxed at any load over 100% - the stock limit of a naturally aspirated engine.
If you look at this AUQ ecu of mine v a V6, you can see load variances;
You can see the stock iop map maxxed on the AUE Turbo, basically telling the ecu to follow x (nigh on 100% torque) over the usual 100% max value of ambient pressure as there is no way of measuring boost, whereas the 20vt ecu accounts for this with a load past 100%, 160% in this case.
Stock AUE
Hybrid and supposed BFH from DAMOS packs;
BUB v BUB Turbo.
Then KFMIRL or IRL tuning which are (sort of) inverse maps, loads of threads online, will talk about them as we go on;
BDE v AUE Stock locations and AUQ;
BFH v BUB Turbo;
BUB v BUB files; (032CE code)
Will edit as needed, you can follow a lot of how these are tuned (minus the boost), here;
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Probably, a tune could just have fuel/ignition and pedal tweaks so can be somewhat cross flashed, you'd have to ask them
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All ME7 is fundamentally the same to a large degree, just various evolutions and parts differences of course, this in turn adds maps/data and changes a few things.
AUE/Early 2.8 24v models have Inlet cam timing but no exhaust, Nokenwellen Einlass maps are there (NW-E abbrv. you should get used to), Auslass (NW-A) are not, generally everything else pretty much the same. Values will change due to a lack of input data when there are maps missing - if trying to define you need to look at axis data rather than cell data if using, for example, a dual VVT def file or R32.
BDE/BDF - late 24v's had both inlet and exhaust cam timing, I think the differences between these are number of 02's due to exhaust differences because ours (UK/EU) were V6 4 motions whereas US were VR6 24V and fwd so different exhaust routings due to propshaft etc but never really done anything with BDF apart from some quick def's.
BFH R32 MK4 - Pretty much the same as BDE only obviously the displacement changes make differences, max torque across CAN etc are upped so some values different like that. They used larger parts like MAF (HFM actually now) so HFM map values/limit's different, low flow rates etc - flow across throttle body and general flow/tb/maf related values are changed due to this. This in turn leads to different maths/logic so many figures different over the 2.8's.
MK5 R32 - Part changes and increased limit's as above really, slight variances again in torque limit values across can and things like that, cam maps, homo/stratified injection, HFM 6 series etc - general evolution of maps there, some other things I can't think of the moment.
AUDI TT - Both mk1 and mk2 TT's use different HFM main maps like Porsche use on the ME7.8 and later ME9 stuff which in turn changes the structure of some maps, A3 ecu's I have done matched the mk5 one's though - everything else I think was pretty much the same as mk5 with only a few minor differences you should be able to see with a good def file.
DSG/Auto v Manual - if doing an engine swap with gearbox change you should use an ecu with that gearbox as you can get all sorts of pedal/flow/rpm play ups, use the ecu for the gearbox is the easiest way really. Same for hybrid conversions, easier to code out than add custom code to it in redundant areas.
That's just some off the top of my head, but even with these kind's of evolutions, the vast majority of data is fundamentally the same or similar, not sure where I "stated they are all the same" as I have always said AUE are inlet vvt, but it's what you can see on the screenshots in the backgrounds or map data shown; very similar in terms of functions overall being ME7.1.1. but different figures due to above and the maths/logic the ecu needs basically.
Example - HFM (maf) variances as stock (HFM 5 but diff sizes mk4 V6 4mo v mk4 R32 here, then v's mk5 HFM 6 series) - MLHFM main map flow kg/hr and min flow; BDE v BFH v BUB
In terms of data stacking/location, as they are all C166 evolutions they are very similar, like the background's in the screenshots as opposed to, in this case, individual data in a cell;
So they are very similar and yet can be different, but no, no special differences between any 2.8's, just some market variances, part/ecu evolutions and more or less data to play with ultimately!
**Also note that mk4 C167 (C166 evolutions) are stacked one way and C167 ST10 (mk5) are flipped, same in DSG reads;
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Little update;
In about 5/6 weeks I am either going to stick it on ebay or remove the LPG and big turbo it I think, it's too nice for the latter though really!
It's currently logging around 150g/s which equates to somewhere around 190hp (lost a dyno plot for 195hp for it so seems the same), also logged 206lb/ft all at 16/17psi of boost. - EDIT: Found dyno from when it was mapped
I bumped it up to 20 and 22psi but throwing a DV code, which I thought was on it's way out so going to replace the 710N/P, it will be further tuned though this week.
7500rpm/1000hp/stock 02M example;
megasquirt 1 v3
in Engine Tuning
Posted · Edited by RBPE
They're all MAF based so you have to compensate a fair bit, MS/MAP sensor likely far easier for you tbh, you could practice on that and/or below though I suppose or even do some tweaks on oem NA set up dep on if/how easy people can flash them..the later ones can be done easier over OBD with some tools than early ones (M2/3 evolved on the 12V before ME7 so not sure of which codes/tools mix but some info on Nefmoto etc and look at those who do things like the AGU engines on old M3 systems like the link). Ecuconnections do a fair bit with the older Motronic systems too.
Just another option there for people to tune them that's all. Can take years to do a good Motronic NA to FI tune though, even Motronic specialists often request tunes for these things if they don't have plenty of time or buy what's available through their tools/re-seller tune files.