Standard Handling - Tracking and Camber

[Knightrider 1]

I’ve had a VR6 1997 Highline for about a month, my first one. It is a completely standard car with verylow (genuine) mileage at 55,000. I’m not very impressed with the handling and am looking for thoughts/advice.

On wet or damp roads the turn-in and grip seems very poor. When cornering in the wet it constantly feels as if it is going to get away from you and tends to understeer, no ‘bite’. It’s a bit like driving on ice. As it’s my first, I don’t know if this is how they are or whether there is a problem. Dry or wet, the steering pulls or kind of wanders, sometimes left, sometimes right, seems to depend a bit on the surface and camber of the road. I wouldn’t have thought the 50 profile tyres are low enough to get the tram-lining you get with the wide, really low, profile tyres. The steering never feels ‘settled’ at straight ahead, always tweaking left or right very slightly.

I’m tending to think that the tracking/toe in/out and or the camber settings are incorrect, but most likely the tracking??

I had a Rover 25 (don’t laugh, they actually handle rather well!) that felt the same, as if going round bends on tip toe, and found the tracking was way out and when rectified it transformed the handling back to how it felt when it was brand new.

It has nearly new tyres on the front (albeit not exactly high quality) fitted by the previous owner - they are Hankook Ventus Prime 205/50/15.

About 2 years and 6,000 miles ago the previous owner had new standard front struts and top mounts fitted by a one man band local garage in his village. Following their fitment, would the toe in/out and maybe camber (is it adjustable??) or any other aspect of the suspension settings have needed to be set up correctly? Would that kind of small garage guy have had the necessary equipment to do the job, do you reckon?

Pending any advice you guys give me, I’m thinking of taking it to a big body shop that has really sophisticated laser based set-up gear. To have it all checked and provided only ‘minor’ adjustments are needed it will cost about £50. If more major work is required they then charge on time taken at £28 per hour.

Anyone got any thoughts?

Can anyone tell me what the standard tracking and camber settings should be? And is there a different setting for the tracking that actually improves things over the standard? May wreck the tyres, but hey!

[craggsy 91]

Well Mk3 suspension is renowned for being crap anyway mate..........plus id try top quality tyres

[manzi 0]

need some wide rimmage!

only noticed this today but i find that a gradual motion of pedal to metal in wet weathers results to lose of grip.

is this just due to the amount of torque?

[H13VYY 0]

iv currently still got standard suspension and wheels and my steering also pulled to the left and right until recently i filled the air up in all 4 tyres..and it runs perfectly fine now. The standard suspension is rubbish plus the standard wheels are to thin/small for the weight of the car in my opinion..the combination of these two is why you can't go around bends at speed!

[Knightrider 1]

Hi H13VYY, What pressure did you put the tyres up to?

[NicDale 0]

You definitly need to get the camber and toe in, heck even a full; alignment, after chaging the front struts, this will help.

I'm currently in process of playing around with camber settings on my VR to see what works so i'll report back in a week or two what i've found to be about optimum (from past expereince i reckon it needs at least 1degree of negative on the front to start with).

[Knightrider 1]

Hi NicDale, is your suspension, wheel and tyre set-up standard? Would be great to know the results of your experiments. Do you know what the standard toe-in/out should be set at? I think I'm going to go for a full alignment check at Tresslers. If that does not help, at least I'll know that the standard set up really is c**p!

[Bobtrude 0]

My vr6 was crap at handeling when i bought it. I mean really bad. And that was lowered, with something cheap, so now i have changed the suspension(fk adjustables),changed to poly bushes, eibach swaybars and omp tower strut brace, an now it outhandeled the audi RS4 on track. So there is hope for everyone i guess.

[NicDale 0]

Hi NicDale' date=' is your suspension, wheel and tyre set-up standard? Would be great to know the results of your experiments. Do you know what the standard toe-in/out should be set at? I think I'm going to go for a full alignment check at Tresslers. If that does not help, at least I'll know that the standard set up really is c**p!

[/quote']

At the moment yes, everything is completly standard.

Bought H&R Cup kit and fitting new wheels bearings then getting it set up properly, won't have time to try it on track over here so i'll be guesstimating how it feels on a few well known b roads I'll report back in a week or so.

[Knightrider 1]

Went to Thick-Fit on Sunday (against my better judgement) and had the tracking checked. Turns out it had 7 degree toe OUT, which is a massive amount out!! I think they tracked it to have 1 degree toe in. This has made a huge difference to how the car feels and handles in the dry. It now goes round corners without your heart in your mouth. Waiting for some rain to see how that feels.

Only downside is I think they made all the adjustment to one side, rather than 'sharing' the adjustment side to side (am I correct in that logic?), So now my steering wheel is not staright and sits about 15 degrees off at straight ahead. Went back twice but they gave the normal flannel and they don't seem to able to fix it. It was fine before they got at it! Trouble is, most of them imo don't really understand it and have not been properly trained. Aaaaaargh.

[ben_notts 0]

hi K.N,

i found the stock suspension garbage - as did all the reviews when the vr came out!

if your not after a rock hard track/ race demon then id defo. recommend the audi s3 replacement dampers sorta OEM+ i spose! they are the Boge turbo's i think - you can get them from GSF and a nice set of springs - i got -35mm apex ones as they come with a 5yr unlimited miles guarantee and are silly low as where i live is one big speed bump.

my top tip would be to troll the for sale forum on here as youll probs get a setup for the cost of the springs alone!

''you cant get shitter than a kwik fit fitter''

[spindat45 0]

As everyone has stated, standard suspension on these cars was crap. Designed for cruising on Autobahns rather than the sort of driving and handling we've come to expect. Go lower and go wider

As for Quick Sh*t, they definately haven't done your alignment properly. Did you have the tyres changed before they tracked the car and if so, did you take it for a drive before they tracked it? Camber should be checked and adjusted prior to the tracking being done and if the is car jacked up or the wheels off the ground, you MUST drive the car around the block to settle the suspension again before any adjustments are made.

They should have clamped your steering wheel STRAIGHT inside the car before they started so it wouldn't move. They should then have put the front and rear alignment equipment on the car and adjusted both sides (track rods) to correct the tracking. If the numbers or readings on both rear gauges are not the same when the tracking at the front is correct then your steering wheel will not be straight. This will be the case if only one side was adjusted as you thought. It is possible that they could not undo one of the track rods but if they did it on a ramp, that should not be an issue with the right tools and some WD40. At the very least they should have given you a reasonable expalnation. I can't see any reason why they would not be able to get it right unless like you said they didn't really know what they were doing. Ask to speak to the manager and have it corrected. Nothing worse that driving with a crooked steering wheel. I tracked numerous cars in my days as a mechanic with an early laser beam system and its not rocket science if you know what you are doing. .

Sorry for the rant but I hope some of that info helps when you go back.

Kevin

[spiffo 0]

Sometimes it's only possible to adjust one side because the track rod on one side is a fixed length, my MK1 was like that, but my Mk3 has threaded track rods on both sides so I'm assuming all MK3's came like that ?

Can Kwik Fit do Camber adjustments, maybe they can Feck that up too ?

[spindat45 0]

Sometimes it's only possible to adjust one side because the track rod on one side is a fixed length' date=' my MK1 was like that, but my Mk3 has threaded track rods on both sides so I'm assuming all MK3's came like that ?

Can Kwik Fit do Camber adjustments, maybe they can Feck that up too ?

[/quote']

Quite right Spiffo. MK1's and some early MK2's (from memory) only had one adjustable track rod but I'm 99% sure that all MK3's have both. A bit of nightmare to track as you had to take the steering wheel off to get it straight after adjusting the tracking and you were often left with more turns to full lock in one direction.

I'm not sure about having your camber done at Kwik Fit. It can be very time consuming and if they can't get tracking right then I'd hate to think what an inexperienced fitter would do to camber

[NicDale 0]

Ok fitted the H&R cup kit to mine last night, haven't got pictures yet as its been pissing down all day, also took the liberty of replacing front and rear wheel bearings and discs at the same time, checked all the bushes and everything seemed fine.

Obviously with a suspension drop things are going to be firmer, its a 60mm front and 40mm rear drop and gas struts instead of oil ones (as fitted as standard). Too look at the car is definitly lower but not too noticeably so, i'm running standard 15" wheels and tyre sizes and there is about a 2 finger gap between top of the tyre and bottom of the arch.

We put as much camber on as we could (about 1degree) and toe in as neutral/parrallel. Biggest difference straight away on a 10mile drive was the noticeably better turn in, it actually feels like the steering wheel turns the wheels now.

Ride comfort was good, but i think a bit more time for the springs and shocks to settle will tell me more about the ride quality.

Overall so far for the money i'm very happy.

[james4287 1]

my vr has been a bit ropey on the turn in ever since i've had it, i checked the tracking myself today and has 1degree toe in one side and 1degree toe out on the other. so i've set it to approx 20minutes toe out on both sides and it does feel much better.

one thing i'm not sure about though, when i fitted the things to the front wheels (supertracker) both rear gauges read the same, 3 on each. once adjusted i had 2.5 on one and 1.5 on the other. whys that and does it matter?

tracking confuses me!

[spindat45 0]

You have a PM James

[amazak 3]

Spindat-Dub, do you still do tracking mate? Need my cambers done as well due to fitting the lowering kit.

[ingham 5]

You definitly need to get the camber and toe in' date=' heck even a full; alignment, after chaging the front struts, this will help.

I'm currently in process of playing around with camber settings on my VR to see what works so i'll report back in a week or two what i've found to be about optimum (from past expereince i reckon it needs at least 1degree of negative on the front to start with).

[/quote']

i run 1.6 degrees of negative camber , and car turns in well never had any under seer

[spindat45 0]

Spindat-Dub' date=' do you still do tracking mate? Need my cambers done as well due to fitting the lowering kit.

[/quote']

I'm afraid not mate. I have access to the equipment at a local garage to do my own but thats about it. Check with my cousin. He knows of a good place over your way.