another mad idea

[Dave@AVT 0]

So now that you've got a good IC core (such as Spearco) with 0.25psi drop (compared with 2-5 for air-air)' date=' what to blast water through it with?

[/quote']

Remeber, pressure drop figures mean diddly unless you have data to go along side it such as CFM and the actual temperature drops the unit creates..

Eg, a peice of scaffold tube has a zero pressure drop, not much use for cooling boost though, whereas a microsize fin intercooler might have a 5 psi drop, but plummet the charge temps due to the fact of the massive internal surface area..

Some of the cheap Ebay intercoolers have low pressure drops simply down to the fact the bars have such large channels in them..

You have to use the CFM data to get a good basis - 3-4psi drop is not high if it is coping with 1000cfm, AND its cooling very well..

...AND..!. some people measure pressure drops before and after intecoolers with two gauges - but some setups have a smaller bore pipe coming from the turbo end (such as 200SX) and then say 3" out of the intercooler. Now if there was no intercooler at all there, there would be a 'pressure drop' simply from the stepped increase in bore size. Figures can be so misleading....

I could make an intercooler setup with a pressure gain, Id have 3" intake piping before the intercooler, and 1" after - its a miracle, an intercooler that acually gains in boost pressure!! - may sound stupid, but I have had systems on Biturbo conversions where there has been next to no 'measured' drop, due to the fact of the two over large feeds coming from each turbo, coming together at a single chargecooler into a single throttle body..

But...back to the subject, 1-2psi is generally acceptable upto 20psi/600cfm..

[jims13 6]

dave that you from ex-carnoisour / world of ice ??? see you have a pic of 'scoldings' 200 on your web page, say hi to him..and hi to you of course

back on topic, listen to the man , he talks sense.!!!

[FishWick 21]

Not saying he isn't and he does know his stuff, but as is always the way with forums, what you read and what is reality are seldom the same thing, for example, according to forums you mustn't run injectors beyond 80% duty. Why exactly? I do and it works fine and has done for over 1000 miles so far.

Now it seems Mezieres pumps are too overkill, despite the fact Bill Schimmel has been using them for years on the worlds most powerful VWs and the Bosch one Dave sells on his Chargecooler website is curiously the best one you can get. Funny that. I must mention this to Bill actually and get his input, I'm sure he'd love to know he's been sending out poorly spec'd kits to his customers.

People are just to willing to believe what the read, rather than believe in what they know and take a risk.

[jims13 6]

kev , im not having a pop, and your right about what you read on forums not being the same as reality.

dave knows his stuff, and i imagine he is only offering his opinion (spelling), also we cant ignore the fact that, peeps like mr schimmel use another brand of pump, i imagine it like most things in the world, for every 1 person you can find to sing a items praise , you will find another one that will shoot it down in a ball of fire, most of the time its down to personal preferance of the tuner/tunning company, most people stick with what works for them, and im glad people have different views on bits of kit etc. as otherwise i would never learn what works and what does'nt, its saved me a fair bit over the years.

as for injectors at 80% of duty cycle, thats the rule of thumb ive always stuck to because that what i had drilled into me by some old school tuners and its seen me good, ive also pushed 270bhp out of my old 200sx, and it was apprent that the injectors where pushing to hard. again its down to choice and whats avalible/budget etc.

im not sticking up for anyone, although reading my post im sure thats how it came across.

ive followed your other thread with intrest, as im currently split between turbo'ing or supercharging, although i dont want more than 300bhp, i use threads like this as a way of deciding what will work best for me on my application.

happy christmas

jim

[rodney 17]

Havin' been for a social pint I Gotta add my 1p. In so far as I am learning loads so keep the education going and one mans wine is another poison - or somink like that!

I opted for Supercharging as I now see the best area for Turbo is over the 300BHP mark (imo). - though the kits to get less BHP are worth the option. I just think the VF stage 2 is the best for me! To be honest the only thing that nearly swayed me was the VvvvvvrrrrrrtttthhhhhhTtttssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhh sound of the Turbo and I will do that next time in a mk2!

I love the threads going on and I didn't know about things like the 80% rule of thumb - though you can go 100%. So it's all good!

Thanks for the years education so far keep going there is more to add like when to increase fuel/pump pressures and..... well you get the gist.

Happy Christmas All Let the beer and wine Flow!

(x) ( (a)

[jims13 6]

RCF , you can put and dumpvalve on a supercharger cant you??

tbh, im still not convinced that i should not supercharge, its all gonna come down to price and ease of fitment.

im of to crack open another cold one.

btw thanks for you input on the tyres

[rodney 17]

don't forget NS have a belting price on stage 2 at the moment - se VF Engineering thread!

No worries!

[mk3anni 0]

I'm running a dump valve instead of the recirc on my charger, so yes!

[Dave@AVT 0]

Now it seems Mezieres pumps are too overkill' date=' despite the fact Bill Schimmel has been using them for years on the worlds most powerful VWs and the Bosch one Dave sells on his Chargecooler website is curiously the best one you can get. Funny that. I must mention this to Bill actually and get his input, I'm sure he'd love to know he's been sending out poorly spec'd kits to his customers.

People are just to willing to believe what the read, rather than believe in what they know and take a risk.

[/quote']

Seeing as I can sell a customer a Meziere pump, a Pace pump, a Bosch pump , a Jabsco pump.....or a set of Reebok Pumps....

...the one I 'recommend' is the Bosch.

The one I use on my own cars is a Bosch..

And the ones running on the 'really powerful' drag cars, ie the RX and Evos that run my CC units use a Bosch. But thats irrelevant as whether the car is running 100bhp or 1000bhp, the pump doesnt know any different, it still flows the same...

I have used Mezieres, but I guarantee that you guy hasnt used my pump as its specific to me - through testing, on numerous different vehicles, with varying system designs, volume and lengths, rather than one that has only been used in a single application on a particular vehicle... Has Mr Schimmel fitted CC kits to rear engined Cars, front engined, drag cars, off road buggys?.. probably not, so one can't say that one particular pump is the 'best CC pump' until it has been tried in every application.

[Dave@AVT 0]

according to forums you mustn't run injectors beyond 80% duty. Why exactly? I do and it works fine and has done for over 1000 miles so far.

Well first off - if you have an injector near 80% duty, then its nearly open all the time.

Problem is, the inlet valve that your squirting through isn't.

Simple as that - Say you then want to increase the fueling output for some reason (say increased boost), now at 90-100% all your actually doing is squirting the extra fuel on the back of the nearly already closed valve, whereas you actually wanted to get it in the combustion chamber...

So, the ideal solution is larger injectors, squirting a large amount of fuel for a short duration close to the point of valve motion where its going to have maximum effect. Its not much of a problem on older SOHC engines that have longer duration grinds but on modern multivalve engines with shorter duration and low lift standard cams, its more critical.

And thats not going into the finer point of fuel pressure dropping on sustained injector openings (depending on pump spec, or boost pressure)...

[FishWick 21]

Thanks for your views and elightenment.

It's good to know there are good alternatives out there if need be.

Yes Mr Schimmel has built rear engined cars and plenty of drag cars and used the same chargecooler setup on all of them. As far as I know he hasn't built any off road buggies - not much demand for those in Warminster USA.

Like yourself, a lot of the parts Schimmel use are custom made to his specifications, so it is also unlikely you have used the exact Meziere pump he uses.

No, you're right, you can't say one pump is best, but you do on your website though - "Chargecooler systems are only as good as the pumps they fed by, and we can guarantee, we make the best pump available on the market."

It looks like a good one compared to others I've seen, no question.

Maybe I should just buy a Bosch and see what the tangible differences are...... £90 seems good value, so I might do that.

[FishWick 21]

ive followed your other thread with intrest' date=' as im currently split between turbo'ing or supercharging, although i dont want more than 300bhp, i use threads like this as a way of deciding what will work best for me on my application.

happy christmas

[/quote']

And to you :-)

I think the only way to make a decision on S/C or Turbo is to try both and see which has the more favourable power delivery.

Having tried both, a small to medium turbo suits my needs better, especially as my daily routes see a lot of traffic. The punch and go torque of a mid size turbo comes into it's own on single carriageways etc and lag is so small, it's negligable. Vortech S/Cs tend to need a lot of revs to deliver boost that you can really feel, so I rarely got to experience it in my particular driving scenarios.

[jims13 6]

thx for the input on the turbo v supergcharger kev, my driving is a variety of both town and motorway, i was thinking of a t3' based system , as they are cheap and plentifull. ,manifold, intercooler and pipes i can sort, as i brought myself a welder. was wondering how well the standard ecu copes with the demands of a turbo? would have thought a supercharger is more linear in comparison.world also be building up a new lump, but want to avoid forged piston etc, if poss to keep overall cost down.

cheers jim

[Dave@AVT 0]

No' date=' you're right, you can't say one pump is best, but you do on your website though - "Chargecooler systems are only as good as the pumps they fed by, and we can guarantee, we make the best pump available on the market."

[/quote']

lol, yeah, the 'marketing', but I have tried it in literally every type of system and design. Some of the turbo'd off road buggies I have sponsored have had the engine low down in the chassis, and the pre-rad for the CC up high in the roll over bar roof line. Some of the other pumps tried 'listed' a high flow output, but the moment they encountered any head pressure caused by pushing a high volume of water upwards the flow rate dropped right down - much like certain fuel pumps that promise the world, then flow next to nothing once they are loaded up over 4 bar...

Jim, yes that is me. I specialise in the Alpine Renaults mainly. Building up a decent stroker V6 biturbo at the minute for one of my GTAs..equal length tubby manifolds, GT28R's, standalone, 650s...

I would personally go turbo. Far easier to upgrade and make more potential of. If you need standalone or cheap forgies, drop me a line.

[jims13 6]

thx guys, tbh turbo is lookng favorite, think ill do some pricing up.

engine looks nice dave, i remember your alpines, one red and one blue, still got them both?

cheers all

[FishWick 21]

No worries Dave, when / if the Mezieres packs up I will certainly try one of your Bosch pumps. Turboed Alpine engine looks superb! I trust you will be chargecooling that? ;-)

Jim - The standard ECU can cope OK if reprogrammed well, to a point. OBD2 is slightly better as it has a few more features to aid the remapper add better lambda control.

In terms of hardware for mapping, you will need a larger MAF housing (4") and 440cc injectors. That will give you a smooth engine, up to 15-17psi.

The biggest shortfall of OEM ECUs is the ability to compensate for boost and you're always stuck with a fickle Mass air sensor.

A standalone will give you much more control over the fuelling and ignition and also boost, but they have certain limitations.

If you're not planning on exceeding 15psi, I'd go with a remap with large bore MAF and 440s. That will be really smooth and punchy, but you will also need a recirc valve, rather than blow off because of the MAF.

Good luck!